A powerful attack that consumes your next turn's action

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:24 pm

So there's hyperbeam in Pokemon, and I've been playing a lot of Bravely Default where there's lots of "super attack now and lose your next action" abilities.

Are there any abilities like that in D&D3e though, or any other tRPG? If you're designing a 'hyperbeam' sort of power, how do you go about balancing it for games like D&D? How do you hit a balancing point where it's not so good that you always alpha strike it, or not so terrible that nobody ever uses it?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:35 pm

OgreBattle wrote:How do you hit a balancing point where it's not so good that you always alpha strike it, or not so terrible that nobody ever uses it?

Well, for one, it's pretty much impossible to have people not alpha strike if it's available and has a chance of ending the combat. That's just how powers like that work. If you really don't want people always ending combat with a Hyper Beam, then you need to set up your resource management system to cockblock this. I recommend using Drain, Rage Meter, or Winds of Fate.

For two, having it not be so terrible that nobody ever uses it means that it has to be compared to every other power in the system and your resource management system. It obviously needs to be at least as good as a non-turn draining power, but it doesn't need to be as good as two consecutive turns of regular powers. If you expect for people to use Hyper Beam as a finishing move, it can only be 1.5x as strong as a normal power.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:41 pm

7th Sea had a school of swordsmanship that went "overpowered attack this turn, then weak attacks every turn after that until you take an action to reset yourself." It was quite good but as Lago says.

There's also the factor that even without such powers, an alpha strike is an optimal play because it removes the possibility of counterattack. The only game I've encountered which gets away from that is Exalted with its perfect defences.

schpeelah · Post by **schpeelah** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:52 pm

Well, how exciting such a move would be depends on the number of expected rounds of combat. In 4e, it'd be a rather boring shifting of damage between round that is used if it's more than twice as powerful as a normal attack and isn't otherwise. In 3.x however you can expect to decide combats in a single round fairly often, and there wouldn't be much reason not to use it if it was a significant upgrade in offensive capability.

Actually, I recall there being a spell or something that left the caster Dazed for one round. There was much angst over the overpoweredness of the user acquiring Daze immunity.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:28 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:How do you hit a balancing point where it's not so good that you always alpha strike it, or not so terrible that nobody ever uses it?
Well, for one, it's pretty much impossible to have people not alpha strike if it's available and has a chance of ending the combat. That's just how powers like that work. If you really don't want people always ending combat with a Hyper Beam, then you need to set up your resource management system to cockblock this. I recommend using Drain, Rage Meter, or Winds of Fate.

For two, having it not be so terrible that nobody ever uses it means that it has to be compared to every other power in the system and your resource management system. It obviously needs to be at least as good as a non-turn draining power, but it doesn't need to be as good as two consecutive turns of regular powers. If you expect for people to use Hyper Beam as a finishing move, it can only be 1.5x as strong as a normal power.

The easiest way to deal with that is to introduce known unknowns. Questions like how many enemies are there, really, and are they holding forces in reserve?

The Wave Motion gun is great if you catch all of the enemies in with one shot. But it leave you a sitting duck for the second wave if they're holding ships back outside of your sensor range.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:15 pm

schpeelah wrote:In 4e, it'd be a rather boring shifting of damage between round that is used if it's more than twice as powerful as a normal
attack and isn't otherwise.

Thought experiment time!

Consider a setup of a PC with this super-move attack that deals on average 2 damage (but forfeits their action for next turn) and regular moves that deal on average 1 damage. They're fighting two monsters, each with three hit points that does one damage a round. Each participant can only deal damage once a round, unless they're defeated and thus can't do any. Assuming that a PC can always target who they want and goes first in a round. Finally, monsters show up at the beginning of the round but don't act before PCs do. They do act when the PCs show up, however.

Scheme A: PC uses their ability at the start of the fight immediately. A monster jumps in round 5.

Round 1: Monster A: 1 hit point. Monster B: 3 hit points. Total PC Damage: 2. <-- PC uses their power right away.
* STUN *
Round 2: MA: 1 MB: 3. TPCD: 4
Round 3: MA: 0 MB: 3. TPCD: 5.
Round 4: MA: 0 MB: 2. TPCD: 6
Round 5: MA: 0 MB: 1 MC: 3 TPCD: 8
Round 6: MA: 0 MB: 0. MC: 3 TPCD: 9
Round 7: MC: 2 TPCD: 10
Round 8: MC: 1 TPCD: 11
Round 9: MC: 0 TPCD: 11

Scheme B: PC uses their ability when the first monster is down to two hit points.
Round 1: MA: 2 MB: 3 TPCD: 2
Round 2: MA: 0 MB: 3 TPCD: 3 <-- PC uses their power to take down Monster A.
*STUN*
Round 3: MA: 0 MB: 3 TPCD: 4
Round 4: MA: 0 MB: 2 TPCD: 5
Round 5: MA: 0 MB: 1 MC: 3 TPCD: 7
Round 6: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 3 TPCD: 8
Round 7: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 2 TPCD: 9
Round 8: MC: 1 TPCD: 10
Round 9: MC: 0 TPCD: 10

Scheme C: PC holds back ability until Monster C shows up. Let's say the PC knows that Monster C is going to show up because an alarm sounded.

Round 1: MA: 2 MB: 3 TPCD: 2
Round 2: MA: 1 MB: 3 TPCD: 4
Round 3: MA: 0 MB: 3 TPCD: 5
Round 4: MA: 0 MB: 2 TPCD: 6
*Monster C Arrives*
Round 5: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 3 TPCD: 7 <-- PC uses their power on Monster to quickly thin the herd.
*STUN*
Round 6: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 3 TPCD: 8
Round 7: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 2 TPCD: 9
Round 8: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 1 TPCD: 10
Round 9: MA: 0 MB: 0 MC: 0 TPCD: 10

hyzmarca wrote:The easiest way to deal with that is to introduce known unknowns. Questions like how many enemies are there, really, and are they holding forces in reserve?

The Wave Motion gun is great if you catch all of the enemies in with one shot. But it leave you a sitting duck for the second wave if they're holding ships back outside of your sensor range.

That doesn't really help, though. The reserve force might be more pitiful than the initial force. In which case you took more damage waiting for an outcome that didn't happen. Or if you don't know when the reserve force is coming, eating a stun is always beneficial. The reserve force might not come before you defeat the initial force and as shown in the above analysis it doesn't matter whether you save your super move or wait until the enemy force shows up.

Might this change for AoEs, though? Not really. Consider you have a single-use AoE (stun optional, it doesn't matter) that can hit up to three people, a standard attack that can only hit one, and you're initially squaring off against two forces. They sound an alarm and there's a reserve force of unknown size that's approaching. If the reserve force size is 1, you take more damage. If the size is two, it's a wash. If it's three or greater, you benefit.

Obviously you can tweak the calculus in certain directions and in specific instances by introducing rage meter or healing or maximum hit points or minimum/maximum reinforcement size or whatever. But, assuming that an unknown known can cut either way with both extremes cancelling each other out, simply introducing an unknown known isn't going to break people out of spamming hyper beam the first time they get an opening where it isn't wasted.

Cyberzombie · Post by **Cyberzombie** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:37 am

You need to do more than just have people forfeit next action, because that generally doesn't mean much. You'd want something like, after your super move, all your other attacks deal half damage and you take some penalties to AC and attack. That way you want to finish the fight with your big gun, but using it early means you're highly vulnerable to second waves or monsters you didn't kill.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:39 am

schpeelah wrote:Actually, I recall there being a spell or something that left the caster Dazed for one round. There was much angst over the overpoweredness of the user acquiring Daze immunity.

Snake's Swiftness IIRC. It gives you an extra action now in return for being Dazed next turn. And two actions that can each be used to cast a high-level spell are basically equal to one extra powerful spell, but with greater cost (more spell slots) and more versatility.

You would want to, instead of making you Dazed, state "you must take no action on the following round" as part of the spell description.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:58 am

Koumei wrote:
schpeelah wrote:Actually, I recall there being a spell or something that left the caster Dazed for one round. There was much angst over the overpoweredness of the user acquiring Daze immunity.
Snake's Swiftness IIRC. It gives you an extra action now in return for being Dazed next turn. And two actions that can each be used to cast a high-level spell are basically equal to one extra powerful spell, but with greater cost (more spell slots) and more versatility.

You would want to, instead of making you Dazed, state "you must take no action on the following round" as part of the spell description.

Snake's Swiftness is a druid spell that grants somebody one standard action melee attack on the caster's initiative, which basically means that it's a blast spell with the focus component of "one amazingly badass beatstick next to the other guy." There's a Mass version which is basically a blanket party for whichever fool your minions are mobbing.

The spell you're talking about is Celerity, which grants a standard action at the cost of an immediate action and being dazed in the next round. This is pretty much why wizards win everything, not only do they win if they go first thanks to twinked-out save DCs on their Fuck You spells, they don't even need to care about initiative when they can simply go Celerity => Time Stop (immediate actions work when it's not your turn and you can interrupt anything with an imm. action) and have all the breathing room they need to do shit. There's a variant called Greater Celerity that grants a full round action, but is at a higher level.

Dazed is quite hard to resist, but some ways (Eberron had something related to the Dragonmark of Storm) exist, which mean that there is now no downside to Celerity.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:44 am

Silent Wayfarer wrote:(immediate actions work when it's not your turn and you can interrupt anything with an imm. action)

Pretty sure you can't use an Immediate if you're flat-footed, so technically if you win Initiative you are safe until they get their first turn. Unless they use a spell to not be flat-footed.

schpeelah · Post by **schpeelah** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:22 am

hyzmarca wrote:The easiest way to deal with that is to introduce known unknowns. Questions like how many enemies are there, really, and are they holding forces in reserve?

The Wave Motion gun is great if you catch all of the enemies in with one shot. But it leave you a sitting duck for the second wave if they're holding ships back outside of your sensor range.

I don't think "in reserve" is the right way to call currently out of battlefield forces that could make a difference within one round. Anyway, in this scenario the disincentive you are introducing is less about possible additional forces and more about adding "and puts you at a defensive disadvantage" on top of losing the next action.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
schpeelah wrote:In 4e, it'd be a rather boring shifting of damage between round that is used if it's more than twice as powerful as a normal
attack and isn't otherwise.
Thought experiment time!

Consider a setup of a PC with this super-move attack that deals on average 2 damage (but forfeits their action for next turn) and regular moves that deal on average 1 damage. They're fighting two monsters, each with three hit points that does one damage a round.

I did specify 4e. So if attacks always hit and normally deal 1 damage, the monsters have around 10 hit points, and the super attack is not worth bothering with 90% of the time if it does not deal more than double damage.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:14 pm

OgreBattle wrote:So there's hyperbeam in Pokemon, and I've been playing a lot of Bravely Default where there's lots of "super attack now and lose your next action" abilities.

Are there any abilities like that in D&D3e though, or any other tRPG? If you're designing a 'hyperbeam' sort of power, how do you go about balancing it for games like D&D? How do you hit a balancing point where it's not so good that you always alpha strike it, or not so terrible that nobody ever uses it?

Why would you want it in a ttRPG?
I can see a many, many, disadvantages in having such an attack option, but I can't think of a single reason to actually want to have it in the game at all.

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A powerful attack that consumes your next turn's action

A powerful attack that consumes your next turn's action

Re: A powerful attack that consumes your next turn's action